I never thought I’d say this, but this is my blog entry about boobs. I happen to have two of my own, which makes me feel particularly passionate about this issue. Let me clear the air first by saying that this is coming from a constant advocate for female rights, health and safety. I’m not big on the term “feminist” and this whole battle of breast censorship is actually a small part of why. When people think of feminists, one of the cliche’ jokes made is their bra-burning tendencies…
Here is what I’m responding to. Many journalists have been covering the hopes for a new law. Here are some of the expectations/ideas/demands I’ve been reading about:
1.Remove the discrimination in law that treats female breasts differently to male breasts despite both consisting of breast tissue, areolas and nipples.
2. Revise the laws on public nudity that effectively deem a woman’s breasts to be inherently sexual. A man can swim topless despite his toplessness being sexual in certain contexts, male strippers for example – women do not have that right.
3. Revise gender discrimination laws so that requiring a woman to cover her breasts is treated as gender discrimination if the same is not required of a man e.g. at a public sauna.
Frankly, I think equalizing female toplessness is not only unrealistic, but unsafe in this world we live in. Lets get real, girls. For the record, that wasn’t me addressing the readers as girls, that’s how I talk to my boobs. My boobs that I don’t cover up because I’m being censored or treated unequally– I cover them for many reasons. Here’s a few of them:
DISCLAIMER: Before you all throw tomatoes…or the bras and tops you are clearly not interested in wearing, I’d like to clarify. Yes, I realize this is not a fight for mandatory toplessness. If I choose to be the uncool girl with the top at the beach or park or casual fast food restaurant, then that’s my prerogative. I get it. But…really, girls? By the way, this time I’m addressing the readers and not my breasts. What’s next? Are we going to rally to do away with clothes altogether? If you are part of some nudist revolution – good for you. Take your terrycloth towel and plant your seat at your nudist camp, but please don’t pretend like it’s the same. Changing the laws and thereby disrupting the general social expectations around whether women need to clothe their upper half is a dangerous idea with serious implications and consequences. It doesn’t just affect the women who get to bare it all for the world to see, if affects the way girls are brought up, what men and women feel is appropriate.
1. Sexualization. I’m sorry, I may be guilty of taking a glance at a perfectly toned chest of a guy or two in my time, but it’s not something that happens often. Whether they are wearing a shirt or not. I can’t speak for other women. But even if hot-business-guy trades his tie for tanning oil, I am still going to be looking him in the eye. Men have been looking me in the breast for more than 20 years. It didn’t even matter that I was 9 when the girls started to grow in. I was treated differently at school, at businesses and everywhere I went, even though it was obviously inappropriate. They weren’t giant dolly-parton boobs, but sorry, girls who have “girls” need only show a tiny bit of cleavage to get attention and that’s something they have to deal with whether they want it or not. Boobs = Attention. Breasts are looked at as sexual body parts and for those who happen to have them before they know more about sex than 5th grade health class, they don’t need any more attention. Or are those in favor of bare-chests suggesting we reeducate the entire human race and de-sexualize breasts?
2. Sensitivity, i.e. “what’s in a breast.” For women, breasts are an erogenous zone. I don’t know much about the amount of nerves and sensitivity. I know that mine are sensitive and I’d assume other women’s are… Likewise, I’d assume mens are less sensitive. I’m pretty sure science backs me up – if you want to dispute me, go do your scientific research. That “titty twister” thing in all the jock movies, that chest-bump thing guys do and many other instances seem to be clues in that direction. My girls are sensitive and walking around without a bra or something to shield them is going to make them more prone to sensitivity. I hardly think it’s the same thing for the man at the boardwalk whose chest is accidentally brushed, versus what situation a woman would be in.
3. Hormones: Breasts change sizes constantly. One minute they are sensitive because your body is going through it’s monthly cycle. Then they grow half a cup for the same reason. Not to mention their complete shift during pregnancy. Is that going on each month inside a male chest? Wait, is it? Let me know…
4. Safety: I’m sorry, I don’t know where you all are from, but I actually live in the world where a woman in the US is raped every 2 minutes and something like 75 percent know the attacker. You know what puts women a step closer to a creeper? I’ll take lack of clothing for $500, Alex. Would this be a woman’s fault? No, of course not. But that’s the world we live in. In many of the 250,000 reported rapes in the US each year – at least the ones that make the news, a common question raised is “Well, what was she wearing?” Do you think it’s going to help the “Well-she-was-probably-asking-for-it” mentality out if she was already half-naked?
5. Get your story straight: “Women are allowed to go practically topless at the Oscars” is one of the arguments I read pro-topless. But this argument is put up right next to breasts not being considered a private part. You said it yourself – why is “practically” topless so scandalous? Because people don’t look at the tops and say, “I wish those women had the freedom to set their non-sexual breasts free.”
and just for fun…
6. Back Health: I’d like to think bras serve an important function other than suppressing our freedom. If I walked around topless, public or otherwise, for more than a few hours, I’d be in back pain. My Victoria’s secret underwire is not handcuffing the girls in, it is supporting a part of my body. A private part.
7. Imagination: Do we not want anything left to the imagination? Are we going to veto panties next?
Thanks for reading. If you read this topless, know that I don’t judge you. But if you read it topless at a public newsstand (and you have boobs) put on a shirt.
By Bonnie Sludikoff
You’re a smart girl and unlike some, can see the big picture and not just one slice of it. Yes, ideally, it wouldn’t be a problem. But in our society, it is.
Common sense tells us that and just allowing women to go topless isn’t going to change conceptions. Because as pointed out, where it is already allowed… hardly anybody does it and it is seen as shocking when they do. Literally the only way it would even have a slight impact is if it was mandatory to go topless. Then I think it would only desensitize future generations. It’s not going to change anything for anybody over the age of 2 or 3 right now. It’s too deeply ingrained in our culture.
Not to mention, you’re completely right about the biological differences.
Also, I hardly think any of these ladies would like to see their daughters complain that some classmate touched them in a way that they and you and anybody with half a brain would call inappropriate… but the administration can no longer do anything greater than a slap on the wrist because by law it’s no longer seen as something sexual. Even when it totally is.
I intended to write a two-sentence response, but I couldn’t help myself because I simply don’t understand why people ignore valid points or even agree but dismiss them because of their own personal opinions. Thank you for actually taking a practical stance. It took some backbone to do it a such a public place and even if we don’t all agree, I think you deserve kudos for that. Even if there are a couple Snidey McSnideypantses out there who won’t admit it.
Thanks, I appreciate that a lot. I get more upset by Snidey McsSnideypantses more than I maybe should, but on the other hand, I usually feel compelled to engage in conversation, even through their name calling and lack of tact, because if you turn one Snidey Grinch into a believer, they will tell the masses. One of my friends looked at all this hubbub and said wow, well…you know, with the anonymity people feel on the internet, that can happen… but on the other hand I am on WAY better behavior with what I say online, because this is in print now and anyone can “accurately” quote me. The internet is a funny place, but thank you for your open-minded read, and to the others who also said kind things, or who were able to disagree but in a respectful manner. I really think that half of our battle as women who want to make the world a better place for women, is to be nice to each other. It’s not rocket science.
Wow, the responses on this article are pretty intense.
I have to say, I totally agree with what you wrote! And, I honestly don’t understand women wanting to walk around topless. Personally, I always have a bra on, I sleep in one, that’s just what’s comfortable for me.
But really ladies, do we actually want to live in a place where women are allowed to walk around with it all hanging out? Say what you will, but a woman’s chest is not the same as a man’s. I feel like the only reason this is even an argument is because the only way to say it is to use the term ‘not allowed’ and that makes people uncomfortable.
The sexual aspect of our society is high enough, and engraved in our kids at quite a young enough age, that I really don’t think having to explain to my four year old why that woman doesn’t have a shirt on, is not something I should have to do, at least not while I’m at the grocery store!
Yes, i think you’re right- a LOT of comments really seemed angry about the “not allowed” idea– in spite of me not ever saying that. but arguing points against this, I can see how people might interpret it that way. I dont like to be told not to do things either.
can giggles delete this horrendous article? it makes me sad.
The main problem with the article is that it is poorly written. The points are so offhandedly argued to be taken seriously, or even seen as valid.
Interesting thoughts Clelie. I was actually using this new literary device I invented called sarcasm. i guess the 121 people who took the time to like the article and the 11 people who tweeted it were wrong, and the people who gave me my degree in English and the people who employ me full-time to write were all misled. thanks for clearing that up, wise person who didn’t make any argument against anything specific I said.
I have lived in Germany for 2 years where swimming topless and naked is normal and you are actually not allowed to wear any clothes in spas. This in a society which is just as sexist as another and I got a lot of street harassment. This makes me feel that toplessness is a separate issue. it’s a question of what a society is used to and context. Maybe in the future being topless will not be misread as an invitation to harass.
One more thing that would make girls and women more self conscious about their bodies
This is a #feminism fail. Yes, I’m just going to be snide about it.
fallow-up-
You write: “In a perfect world…we could just all be naked and that’d be safe and we could be respectful, etc, but that’s not reality… Our culture is oppressive and dangerous, and if we ignore what we know about the way things are, we are the ones promoting a back step for feminism…”
I think this is where you and I (and many others it seems) can find the root of out disagreement.
We can’t wait for “a perfect world” in order to exert all of our freedoms. We have to exert our freedoms in order (even though some may say we are putting ourselves in danger) in order to CREATE a perfect world.
I’m not going to accept the “reality” of our “oppressive and dangerous” culture. I don’t think this is “ignoring the way things are” but ACTIVELY TRYING TO INITIATE CHANGE
I try to initiate change- actively, daily, in my conversations, in my work through the non-profit campaign I founded. im glad to find people who are like-minded. and yes, exert your freedo. i just think that this particular move has consequences that are unecessary. and like i said somewhere in all of this, if this bill was rewritten to be about EQUALITY, I could support it, BUT the existing bill does not say that. It says that my breasts (that, if groped in a public place, no one does shit about… speaking from experiences reporting sexual violence, hearing others stories, etc) are the same as a mans chest- which are quite less often disturbed.
This isn’t about “WAITING” for a perfect world. it’s about not jumping the gun and saying “it SOUNDS like what I want, so it must be right. Lets right the laws Correctly so women don’t suffer down the road.
“WRITE” not “RIGHT” sorry, passion of the moment!
I guess I’m not sure what specific law you are referring to, you don’t mention a bill title/number and you don’t quote directly from the bill in the article. And you don’t mention in which state this specific legislation is proposed, or is it at the federal level?… maybe I’m just not reading carefully enough?
You assert that the bill “says that my breasts (that, if groped in a public place, no one does shit about… speaking from experiences reporting sexual violence, hearing others stories, etc) are the same as a mans chest- which are quite less often disturbed.” Not to be rude but you really need to provide some hard evidence to back up that claim.
Touching ANY part of ANYONES body (regardless of gender) without their consent is harassment. Period. What exactly are you reading in the proposed legislation that will undermine that?
I don’t know where to find the documents online with the proposed law- you’re welcome to go searching, but i am walking away from this conversation soon, as I feel i’ve pretty much made my point and people who disagree, that’s fine. it’s America, we don’t need to disagree.
But I wanted to address what you asked, because I think it’s important.
I am not writing a thesis,and this isn’t CNN, i purposely did not make this piece about the specifics of the law, because the point i am making is very simple, and i’m focusing my activism fight on awareness via the mainstream audience instead of standing at city hall, because I think this is a smarter way in,and I don’t have access to those people, but i can create change as a writer on a site such as this one…
The part I feel is particularly important is the probably consequence of a potential law (sorry, I dont know at which level, but the fact that is might come to pass at ANY level is problematic and interested parties can research at their own will, of course). Also, the important thing to note, I feel I have been pretty clear, but I will say it again- I’m not claiming “toplessness is the worst thing and shame on people who want to make it happen.” I am merely trying to show people that there is a consequence to using certain clauses to promote toplessness.
The clause in question is:
“breasts on a woman are THE SAME as a the chest on a man.” if that sort of statement becomes something that is published in any sort of “LAW” we are in trouble.
To simplify and avoid making this argument longer- if I am sexually harassed in any way in the future, and I report it to the police, and there IS a law that says “breasts on a woman are THE SAME as on a man,”I have NO protection or grounds for pressing charges.
My “Sexual Battery” claim, becomes, at worse, like, a “he bothered me in a totally non-sexual manner” claim. Which sounds ABSURD, but right now, we realize breasts as a sexual body part, as in, if you touch them without my consent, we call that sexual harassment/battery/violence/abuse…. if we take the “Sexual” out of that, then we lose the right and ability to keep women safe…
no, that’s in regard to the current legislation, and it’s not about what is written in the law- that is relevant, but what i was addressing there is talking about the reality of reporting sexual violence right now with where we are socially as a Country. the argument is that any step in the direction of making the human body “less sexual” than it inherently is, or how it is by whatever has been socially created in the last 100 years, is dangerous in our progress in fighting sexual violence.
oh nevermind, disregard that last thing- i referenced the wrong part. let me see if i can find something solid in the actual bill
Okay: I live in NYC where women are allowed to be topless in public (although some members of the NYPD seem to forget that).
Here’s what I have to say.
I believe that women should be able to expose their chests in public, whether or not they are sexual.
The issue of fault for women who get unwanted attention as a result of their style of dress is an easy one. It’s not their fault. Ever. At all. It must be absolute. Here’s why: any grey on the topic of fault communicates to men that their desires ARE out of their control. And men who grow up in that type of environment learn that they are not to blame for indulging their urges.
Men are sexual and strong, yes, and it’s a dangerous combination. But they are people first, who are capable of following the same laws as everyone else. If we teach men they don’t have control of their sexuality and how they express it, how can they gain any?
The other night I was faced with a choice that I feel is a perfect example of this issue.
I was going to a burlesque show with a female friend that started at midnight. I had this great bralet that I’d been dying to find a place to wear. But it’s really just lingerie… lacy midriff-exposing lingerie.
I had a thought: maybe I shouldn’t wear this out alone. That thought was the EXACT reason I threw on a mostly sheer long crimson skirt and marched out of the house in it at 11:30 in the middle of Manhattan proudly, with an ass-kicking grin, and without a man (or anyone) to protect me. Because men are people. I have to believe it.
Men ARE people- and thanks for saying it
I am not putting down men, I love men. And I think the good ones outweigh the bad, and good for you for your boldness. But you bring up a point that I think supports mine– it’s NOT ever anyones fault who suffers in this broken “rape culture” society. that’s exactly why I think this bill needs to either be Rewritten or discarded, because its damaging to that very prevalent idea that is IS ever someones fault for being assaulted.
The problem is, using the notion that being topless would be a danger to women as an argument only promotes this type of blame.
Breasts (of both sexes) are sexual. So are necks and ears and hands and ankles. Deciding that women can’t show their nipples is part of what makes them tantalizing. But I would argue that sideboob and clevage are more sexual than an exposed breast. They’re innately alluring because of what they conceal.
Women should be able to go topless (although most women still wouldn’t) not only for reasons of equality, but to send a message that sexuality isn’t private and that people can be sexual and also respectful of eachother. We can’t restrict women’s freedoms in favor of fear.
yes, that is a great concept- so why not reword the bill to say that? but right now, its poorly constructed and enforces the opposite idea- that breats are just a casual non-sexual body part.
Ella wrote: “The problem is, using the notion that being topless would be a danger to women as an argument only promotes this type of blame.” And I want to say YES! THIS!
You’ve made it very clear that you don’t think women should be blamed for their attacks/harassment because of what they wear (or don’t wear) and yet… and yet you argue that we should let the fact that this happens all the time affect which laws get passed and how women should legally be allowed to dress in public. I’m interested to know how you justify holding such (IMO) completely contradictory beliefs. Or how (correct me if I’m misreading you) you can believe that a law allowing women to bear their chests if passed would put women in MORE danger of being blamed for their attacks?
I know I mentioned this below but what exactly is the language in this bill that’s troubling you? How does it enforce the idea that “breasts are just a casual non-sexual body part” and how does that promote rape culture as much or more that sexualizing female breasts so much that it is considered “indecent exposure” to bare them?
While I totally understand that you wrote this article to express your opinion about a controversial topic, I have to say that I’m not a fan of your arguments here. I think they are anti-feminist and rooted the sexist ideologies of a patriarchal society.
You ask in the article, “are those in favor of bare-chests suggesting we reeducate the entire human race and de-sexualize breasts?” and the short answer is: YES! I think your phrasing of this question is a little extreme, and obviously female breasts will not become ENTIRELY desexualized just because one law gets passed, but the goal here (or at least one of the goals) is to give women’s bodies legal autonomy from the male gaze.
Let me say that again: women’s bodies are entitled to legal autonomy from the male gaze.
One more time: Women’s bodies should be treated EXACTLY THE SAME as men’s bodies UNDER THE LAW.
In your fallow up post you wrote: “this is about the very real consequences of toplessness [becoming] legal. It’s not about whether it’s fun, or cool, or morally right to be able to set the girls free, it’s about what it says. And if this particular bill in question is passed, we are saying, that female breasts are EXACTLY the same thing as the male chest.” I guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion here because what you posit as a “consequence” is for me a HIGHLY DESIRED OUTCOME!! This is what I call EQUALITY!!
You keep talking about “reality”- that it’s a “reality” that female breasts are sexual, they always have been and they always will be and that will never change. Well, in my “reality” we live in a patriarchal society that sexualizes women’s bodies much more intensely than men’s. In my “reality” this is wrong and this needs to be changed. In my “reality” it is not my responsibility as a woman to just “accept reality” but to CHANGE that reality into one of equality.
I hope none of this comes off as a personal attack, that’s not how I intended it at all. I would really love to hear what you have to say in response. And I’m sorry if I was a little heavy handed with capslock … gender equality is just something I’m really passionate about.
Brittany: I don’t take it as an attack- thank you for being respectful of my feelings though- I appreciate that, and we don’t have to agree on everything- that’s the great thing about America… and that fact that we’re all adults here. We can all learn from each other’s points of view if we can appreciate where people are coming from and listen without attacking them. And as a note to the people who went right to a figurative kick in the shins instead of trying to understand the POV being expressed, I hope you can see the value in having a conversation, regardless of whether you agree.
I think this is gonna get some disdain, whether people say it or not, but i think, historically, a flaw to feminism has been that we think we can define it… the fact that anything can be labeled as “anti-feminism” is kind of problematic in terms of fulfilling what the purpose of feminism, that that is semantics and i’m not trying to be annoying. I just needed to say that, and you’re entitled to that opinion!
Maybe saying “reeducate the entire human race” was a misleading statement for me, because that doesn’t sound half bad. It’s not that I don’t think we should do that. For me, it’s about working with what we have. Setting realistic, healthy goals based on who we’re working with- the people, the politicians, etc.
Among other references, have we all been reading about Todd Akin, about the things his wife, Lulli Akin said, and about Paul Ryan? This may sound off-topic to some who are following this conversation, but the most tempered part of this debate, for me- as someone who is passionate about changing the way we treat sexual violence- because ( I believe) we are doing poorly in terms of creating *societal* changes.
Law is great, but you don’t end rape with one big law- it’s already illegal. It’s a complex issue that has to do with the way we treat one another, with what is enforced, with how children and adults are educated, and relating directly to this breast story, how we address the human body in terms of what is written as law.
So, unless I am misreading your comment, it looks like where you stand is summed up mostly in your statement: “Women’s bodies should be treated EXACTLY THE SAME as men’s bodies UNDER THE LAW.”
I guess I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree. If I were looking at this issue as someone who did not have a female body, or any other kind of body, and was just looking at it from an idealistic “we should be equal” point of view, I’d agree. And don’t get me wrong- we DO need and deserve equality.
My biggest point is that: Womens bodies are not the same as mens bodies, and therefore cannot and should not be treated the same.
As a “whole” we are all equal- as in, we could create a law about how men and women should be treated equally, but this isn’t about that- this is about comparing two body parts that are not the same. It’s not about equality, it’s almost about science… and it’s about the existing social conditions
Does that make sense? Maybe we entirely disagree. Stranger things have happened. My statement is based in the science of a woman’s breast being different from a man’s chest. I don’t think when Bras and Bikinis were invented they were made to oppress women. There is a lot of shit out there made to oppress us, but I appreciate that someone took into account that boobs need little boob holders that we named Bras…
More seriously than comfort, fashion or whatever exists as far as nerves and whatever breasts are actually physiologically made of- not the same as what men have, btw…
More seriously than that— I’m not trying to take AWAY our equality. I think the most important thing is that this law would be a detriment- NOT because of what its about — i.e. toplessness, BUT about the ramifications made in the bill. The one that is in question- because there is not an option here (right now) of just being topless because we think it means we have “equality”- we are talking about this specific, existing proposed bill.
There are a LOT of points of view and intricacies to everyone here- and some of us are arguing the same points in different ways– but at the end of the day, the real question is :
Is a female breast the same as a male “breast”– and i think that’s a no.
And I love me some social progress, but I think leaping off the fence-braless, no less, and expecting to be met with instant social equality is unrealistic in a society where many women rarely feel safe walking alone fully clothed.
Oh my gosh, THIS ARTICLE MADE ME SO ANGRY that I’m commenting! Bonnie, I don’t know what this article reads like in your mind, but in reality it reads as slut-shaming, body policing, and decidedly anti-feminist. Your arguments mask deeply embedded societal misogyny in what sounds to some like “logic,” and it’s unfortunate that the arguments you’re employing are the same arguments that are used to justify rape culture and hold back feminism, and even more unfortunate that “it blows [your] mind that people think [you are] arguing against feminism.” You are. You’re setting women back years with this article and you don’t even know it. The slew of criticism of you in the comments feed is encouraging, of course, it hasn’t made you rethink anything, but you definitely seem to have confused the fact that you don’t want to take your breasts out in public with the idea that you have a right to tell other women why they shouldn’t do it either, because, believe it or not, even though I know you’re “not trying to tell anyone they should not individually go topless,” that’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re adding to the chorus of misogynist fear mongering that serves to keep women exactly where they are in society, fearful, objectified, decidedly not equally. If you don’t want to go topless for the reasons you mentioned, I think that’s perfectly understandable, it’s tough enough being a girl in general, and going topless is still what might be considered radical activism, because it is challenging, for the girl who chooses to do so and for everybody else. And if you don’t like having your breasts out that’s fine. But I want to be clear, what you just did was publish a laundry list of reasons why other girls, girls who DO feel like they should be able to go topless, should be scared and ashamed to do so. You’re right that bras are not always tools to oppress women, they can be supportive, unlike your article, which is at best NOT supportive, and and worst extremely oppressive. I’m curious, did you feel a need to take a stand against feminist activists for some political reason, or were you just too busy talking about your own feelings that you failed to think that maybe you were holding back women who feel differently from expressing themselves?
Tinker, I guess you have a cup of decaf and reread my article without projecting your feelings about what is right back on me. This time, please don’t miss the highly facetious tone- i.e. i dont actually go around talking about my breasts all the time… At the heart of it, I am not really commenting on myself, but the reality. If you want to piss more on my goals of working to create a world of equality and safety for women, check out my nonprofit “That’s What She Didn’t Say” dedicated to breaking the stigma of sexual violence. google it.
But This issue is not about whether any of us would like to or should go topless. And for the umpteenth time I’m not telling anyone what they individually should do or judging toplessness as a practice. In a perfect world, as I think someone mentioned, we could just all be naked and that’d be safe and we could be respectful, etc, but that’s not reality.
Do some research on rape litigation and what it’s currently like to report any sexually violent crime from a minor assault to a brutal rape. Most of the letters I get for my non-profit campaign are from women who have not come forward and have lived in silence for decades…
I’d get angry and tell you that it was insulting for you to comment that I am promoting rape culture, but you already expressed your anger, so I can only assume you’re trying to insult me. Thanks. Btw, I find it ironic for women to comment that I am being anti-feminist and then saying abrasive things. Talk about a back step. we will never be successful with this feminism thing until we can treat one another with respect, regardless of our differing opinions.
Our culture is oppressive and dangerous, and if we ignore what we know about the way things are, we are the ones promoting a backstep for feminism..
I appreciate you taking time to respond to the critique, not just mine but everyone’s. However, you seem to making the same caveats over and over again to different people, and given your persistent denial of various points, it seems like you think you wrote a completely different article from the one you actually wrote. I’m not trying to be inflammatory or insulting, because you seem very well-intentioned (your nonprofit looks great!), and that’s probably why I’m taking entirely too much of both of our time commenting, but understand that your article left me infuriated for very specific reasons. I should clarify, I’m not saying you or your article are furthering rape culture, what I’m saying is that a lot of the things written in your article sound suspiciously like the things that come out of the mouths of anti-feminist rape-apologists, and I’m not the only one reading your article that way, and that is a serious red flag, maybe one that you should heed, even if you don’t think that it’s true. To clarify, I think you’re getting a lot of flak for several reasons: You start off immediately on the wrong foot by separating yourself from the label of “feminist.” I think this is understandable though, as you go on to give a list of reasons why women, in this case, should not have the same rights as men, and even though you keep claiming that you’re not trying to tell anybody what to do, your article is taking a stance that is pretty directly in opposition to the bill you begin by discussing, and reads as demeaning and defeating to all women who advocate for toplessness as an issue of equal rights. You say in your title that you “don’t want the freedom,” and maybe you don’t understand this, but your article reads like it doesn’t want anybody else to have that freedom either, it is anti-freedom. So, now you’re not only anti-feminism, but anti freedom for women to have their bodies seen equally under the law. But that’s not enough. Surely you know that the problem with a culture that blames a woman for a sexual assault by citing her provocative outfit is problematic because it places blame on the victim instead of the perpetrator, but did you also consider that that that kind of victim blaming serves as a way of policing women’s bodies, and that the act of putting the onus on women to keep themselves safe is a tool used by the patriarchy to keep women fearful and objectified. Ask yourself, should we be policing women and forcing women to police themselves more, or should we instead be policing the men (and the misogynist culture they are situated in) who perpetrate misogynist crimes more. Because what you are doing in this article is enforcing every point that men use to justify victim blaming arguments, by sexualizing women’s bodies and suggesting that the way you dress can be an invitation. See, feminists would say that it is not a woman’s responsibility to kowtow to a victim blaming misogynist culture by policing the way they dress themselves, and under no circumstances does a woman EVER “invite” rape. You make it clear that you disagree. Make no mistake, in your article, you are arguing for the policing of women’s bodies, and your position is anti freedom for women. It suggests that women should be fearful and ashamed to bare their breasts for a list of reasons that are highly essentializing and eroticized. You generalize about women and you generalize for them. You think it’s just about your lack of desire to have certain freedoms, but really, by publishing an article that is anti having those freedoms, you’re hurting everyone who fights for those freedoms. You’re getting flak because, whether you realize it or not, your article enforces misogynist arguments and is decidedly anti-feminist. Sorry I failed to make this shorter, thanks if you took the time to read it. You seem okay, really, I’m really just trying to explain why (I think) it is that so many people have found this article so revolting.
That fact that you need to include something like “im sure you’re ok, really” is condescending and assumes that you are right and that i have not researched my point of view, and i have. most of your arguments here have been name-calling, snap conclusions, and blatant judgment instead of dealing with facts or trying to understand my point of view. i appreciate you cooling down enough to seem like you’re listening, but mostly i think it’s insulting.
i suppose you think the 121 people who liked this article, the 11 who tweeted it, and all the women who silently liked it but didn’t take the time to click like were all misled too. that’s your prerogative, but i hope you can open up enough to have a response to people’s well-researched, grounded in reality, articles to have a reaction other than thinking “you’re wrong”
what you mistake for denial is reality, and factual evidence.
i am NOT saying women are inequal, i am saying our bodies are PHYSIOLOGICALLY different. do some research. it’s not a made up thing. google stuff about what a breast is made of, and nerves and hormones… you cannot say “a woman’s breast is THE SAME as a man’s chest” because they aren’t. thats not a lack of equality, it’s 5th grade health.
you are entirety misreading the rape argument, so i dont know what to tell you. i am pretty well versed in this topic from my own book research and what i have been through.
were you the one who called me out on victim-blaming? I thin you might have been.t hanks for that. should i repeat that it’s never a womans fault, that rape is wrong, that women should not have to be afraid, and that rapists should be thrown in jail forever? i feel like that goes without saying. here is what i AM saying though, one last time.
according to the implications of THIS law that people are trying to pass, a breast becomes a Non-sexual body part… so the reality is that on paper- in legal documents, the stuff that judges have to use to make their decisions, we as a society would be agreeing, boobs are not sexual.
so part two of that is, when a woman has her breasts groped, part of the CURRENT argument (without this law) is that someone touched her in a SEXUAL way… that is sexual battery/harassment/abuse, ETC
BUT if the law says its not a SEXUAL body part, then it’s just someone touching her in a NON-SEXUAL way, and therefore it’s not sexual assault.
the end.
I do see what u r saying here but I have had my arm groped and massaged in a very sexual way and no one thinks my arm is a sexual zone. Men’s breasts can give milk like a woman’s breast did u know that? Women’s breasts r not any more sexual than mens, they r more usually functional tho. I know women who’s breast r not sensitive and men’s breasts that r.
well, i respect your point of view. I fervently believe the opposite. Womens breasts are not the same. A lot of research supports that- but like any topic, there are people arguing both sides. But personally, as someone who has had to report sexual violence before, and, through my non-profit, speaks with a lot of women who’ve been assaulted, I hate the idea of it being any harder to prosecute. Law enforcement is laughable already on this issue. If we add new clauses about how certain parts of a womans body are less sexual..I just think that’s a nutty idea, and I think the people who wrote the bill are doing women a huge disservice.
that should have been “I suggest” not ” I guess’ at the beginning…
Bonnie (who wrote this) here– I just want to clarify that I am not telling anyone they are going to get raped or hurt from going topless—– that’s not what i’m saying. And I’m not trying to tell anyone they should not individually go topless. I’m not a big fan, BUT if the points made in the proposition were changed, I wouldn’t be bitching about it at all. This isn’t about whether boobs should be seen or making a judgment on those who want to freely share their boobs with the world. I’m not telling you what to do with your boobs, and I apologize to anyone who thinks that’s the point I’m making.
This is about whether the female chest is 1. not a sexual part of the body, and 2. the same as the male chest.
Reality check: The way the world relates to me changes whether I wear something that shows cleavage or not. (is anyone going to dispute me on this?) But if it’s topless it’s not sexualized?! Are you kidding me? It’s not my *fault* that if I wear a revealing top to go out tonight, I might get some unwanted attention, but it’s reality, and it’s reality that if I show the boobs in their entirety, that heightens. It’s just logic…
This isn’t about me saying this is wrong or right- this is about the very real consequences of toplessness become legal. It’s not about whether it’s fun, or cool, or morally right to be able to set the girls free, it’s about what it says. And if this particular bill in question is passed, we are saying, that female breasts are EXACTLY the same thing as the male chest. It’s not that it’s going to cause crime at the topless beach, but I believe you need to take into account that it will, down the road, give ammunition to rape and sexual assault cases. If a young girl complains that a boy touches her breasts, we call that sexual harassment, right? What if we decide breasts are not a “sexual” part of the body? I’m not saying it would EVER be victims fault, but I live in reality, and this is a step in the wrong direction. This sounds a little silly, but it’s also VERY serious and backed in the reality of what goes on in a sexual violence case, and if you don’t believe me, go do your research and then we can debate.
ALSO thank you to the girls who defended me from what i agree was a catty/nasty remark, it’s nice to see girls defending one another- it blows my mind that people think I am arguing against feminism, but that’s another story. Please not that the comment about whether my back would hurt if I went braless was under the line “just for fun…” meaning it was even more facetious than a lot of the other commentary- but in reality, congrats on your perky D cup, but my D cup would rather be supported by my awesome bra. No i wouldn’t be in debilitating pain to walk around without a bra. But in all seriousness, girls with larger breasts (which is not fixed by exercising more, but thanks for that) are physically doing themselves a favor and yes, literally, protecting their backs. I’d be fine walking around without a bra for a week. I could also walk around with a d-cup sized backpack on for a week, but it’d be more comfortable not to.
Thanks for reading, everyone!
I think that u failed to read my comment then re neck, ankles, etc and how they were once seen as enticement to men. There was an article done several yrs ago about how if a woman was wearing a dress and a man put his hand on her knee it was sexual but if it was a casual day at the beach and she was wearing a bikini and he put his hand on her knee it was not sexual. What I am trying to say is that just because boobs r perceived as a certain way today the perception won’t change if we don’t make them change. I think Michael Jackson did a song about that so did Phil Collins I think. We have to fight for the change and change the perceptions. I personally think a man’s chest is sexual and sexy to look at and touch. I don’t go up and touch men’s chests tho yes women’s chests r different but we should still b able to go out just like men. The rape culture needs to change. Which means men need to start owning themselves and women need to start making them. This is about choice. I don’t want to go around topless, I’m old and ugly and I like clothes, butbthose who do should b allowed to.
Yes, I understand your point of view. While I am not a huge believe in toplessness being the most productive social change, I am not arguing against that– a few of my points were lighter and I don’t need to do a big recap, but the one I think a lot of people are missing, because they are bringing up terms like “rape culture” is this. I’m not arguing “we shouldnt have the freedom to be topless”—
I am arguing that: The bill that people are trying to pass states that the reason we should be free to be topless is that “female breasts are the same as a male’s chest.” if they want to make the bill reflect reality, that’s cool. BUT if we allow a law to pass that says that, it IS problematic and detrimental to us ending rape culture. the consequence is Almost certainly that when girls report sexual violence in regards to men touching their breasts without consent, it can be argued that the breasts are not a sexual body part. That is the statement of this very real law people are trying to pass. “breasts are not sexual.” I am putting two and two together.
I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but I think it’s silly to ignore this. Yes, women should be equal, but we have to be realistic and realize we are going to suffer in court if we do not protect the wording of the laws that we allow to become a reality.
“This is about whether the female chest is 1. not a sexual part of the body, and 2. the same as the male chest.” Thank you for clarifying that, Bonnie. That caveat makes this article a little bit more understandable. I would argue that being topless actually would desexualize the female breast…take a look at National Geographic photos of women in other cultures…their naked breasts are FAR less sexual than the ones half covered that show up on the red carpet. But at least you were not trying to say that a woman shouldn’t have the right to be topless if she so desires, which was what I (apparently incorrectly) took away from your article.
And yeah, thank God for bras!
totally want you to have your right to do what you want with your body. i just think it’s silly to ignore all the very real social implications of this, which the specifics of this proposal bill are doing
I’m on the fence as to whether the Femens are on the right track in advocating women’s rights by showing their boobs to the world, but I’m inclined to let them do it, for a few reasons… Like the fact that today’s perception of grumpy men-hating feminists needs to be brightened up a bit and show we’re not all taking ourselves so seriously.
Also, about the sensitive boobs thing? Yours may be very sensitive, but mine aren’t at all, so please don’t categorise my boobs under your criteria.
But my main problem with this hateful article is that it’s embodying the worst kind of sexism for me: I do NOT need anyone, no man, no woman, NO ONE, to tell me what I do with my body. Just because the writer of this piece has boobs does in no way let her tell other boob owners what to do with theirs, and in no way protects her from being sexist..
Gender equality is a really important issue and I think that any step that gets us closer to a lawfully equal world is a good step. Laws don’t change people’s opinions or preferences, but they are the start to a socially equal world, even if most people don’t lend women the same equality privately. Just because you, personally, feel this way doesn’t mean that the legislation isn’t worth pushing for. Honestly, I think that a lot of the things that you list as cons will dissipate over time if women begin to embrace this new freedom. (Not that I’m saying they will, I honestly think that it will have very litte effect on our daily lives.) I guess what I’m saying is why shouldn’t our laws be worded fairly. Let’s go for fair before we talk about how much we don’t want to go topless, because I really never want to eat Strawberry ice cream, but I do like to have the option of buying it, ya know?
I do understand the argument the author is trying to make. It is, however, the same argument made yrs ago re women wearing pants, or showing wrists, ankles necks, etc. Until we change the views they will stay the same. And how is just bowing under the pressure to not have a bad opinion of a woman if she is raped the right thing to do? We need to change the mindset around rape, keep pressing to make it the man’s fault and fight to not make it the victims fault for past sexual experience, how she was dressed, where she was at or how many drinks she had!
I completely agreed while reading this article until I remembered something…I live in a province (Ontario) that allows women to be topless and I have yet to see a set of “girls” footloose and fancy free around town. I know personally, I would never go out topless, I don’t want anyone except me and my partner to see my boobs. And even though I think we as a society will never change our sexual views on women’s breasts in comparison to men’s breasts, is there really any harm in allowing us to at least have the right to choose? I mean when you set the petty snickering aside, it’s just about having a set of equal standards for both sexes.
I mean could you imagine if we all decided to lobby to have it illegal for men to go topless? …They’d be all up in arms, and would think the thought was absurd. :p
In an ideal world, we would be able to go topless. But, the way our society views breasts make it really hard for us to just go around topless. Until society changes, we can’t change.
Women: If you want to walk around topless- go to NY. In 1992 it was made allowed that any place a man can be topless, a woman can be too. So stop complaining and pack your bags.
I don’t know about you but I don’t want to walk around with people staring at my boobs and without the protection of clothing.
Oh, and Sarah Hoch, way to be a bitch. “Maybe you should exercise more” is a rude thing to say to someone. Maybe her boobs are bigger. Maybe she has a smaller frame than you. Maybe you should mind your own business. If she has back problems, like many women with large breasts, then they have every right to wear a bra. Some people need them.
Agreed…especially on the exercise comment. You don’t have to be a jerk just because you may not agree with her.
Ah, you’re awesome. You have taken my jumbled thoughts about feminism and have written them out superbly. Thank you.
I agree with you, these things are not being thought through properly! As much as I am pro-equality, people need to accept that male and female bodies are biologically different… You have very good points here.
To the above comments – when I first started reading this article, I felt like I wasn’t going to agree. Because I do believe in women’s rights and would normally feel we have the same right to show our breasts as a man does. However, that said – while reading this article I had a good long thought. No one is hating on feminism in this article. And as to whether breasts would eventually be considered not sexual? Not going to happen. It’s ingrained in our systems from birth. It stems from a deep psychological issue (I’m sure that Freud would have a blast with) in regards to nurturing to begin with. You say, nurturing and feeding turns into something sexual? Unfortunate, but yes, it does. And I for one have a size F breast, (which a good MALE friend was kind enough to notice and point out – that I wasn’t showing more of, but had more to show) – and I have had shoulder and back problems for years (even while a D) with heavy duty bras nonetheless from them. Say what you will about your personal opinion whether or not to go topless, but the writer of this article has thought through some pretty concrete reasoning that isn’t really based on whether or not to be a feminist. It’s based on quite a few facts and hard reality.
Yes, say what you want about your personal opinion as to whether or not to go topless. But don’t say that other people have to go by that opinion. If my opinion is that it’s OK, then it’s OK for me. Period.
I’m so sorry, I meant to <3 your comment but accidentally clicked the arrow!